Defending the Catholic Faith Over a Beer with My Calvinist Friend in 1996

My side of the conversation:

what’s happening in seedy CdA?
poor thing
she’ll come to regret it someday
I can see it now
I’ll be right back … I got a head start on ye
I’m back but will be running for my pretzel momentarily
I think MS keyboards prefer coffee
she’s gonna visit her friend who lives near Roosevelt High?
just in time for the rainy season
right, and that’s most of the time. actually, it’s been real nice lately — mixture of v dark clouds and patches of blue sky
which of my chagrins?
Okay. She’s been busy, busy w a new job (s).
somewhat. we didn’t see each other yesterday but talked on the phone. i don’t know how to deal w a girl who dont do email.
It’s okay. We usually at least talk on the phone in the evening. And we’ve talked about me maybe going over and doing some painting or drawing at her place while she works on her composing, to see how our creative energies may or may not complement each other. But scheduling difficulties are making it difficult. this week w her new job and stuff and next week I’m going to Walla Walla for an interview and probably gonna visit my folks for a day or two.

(1) she is a secretary at a Lutheran church
(2) I think the job at Whitman is (possibly) mine for the having if I want it, but there are two new openings at King County which I might opt for pursuing. Unfortunately I will probably have to take or leave Whitman wout knowing for sure about King County.

And things w M are really too premature to either ask her to come to WW or to stay because of her (strictly) so it is all pretty sticky youre right — and I’m still seriously discerning whether to join the Benedictines —

too many variables
Well, the main wing of Lutherans in the US is called Evangelical (ELCA) but among those calling themselves thus are probably a wide spectrum of degrees of conservative/liberal theology — anyhow she says it’s conservative but I dunno.
Not particularly. She’s very intelligent, very sharp, and has thought things through on her own very well, but she doesn’t have a real broad view of the thing that is Christendom in all its dumbness.
She basically fell in love with Christ and the Catholic Church simultaneously and took the leap.
I think you’re right.
I’m reading a book by a poet named Kathleen Norris. She is a Benedictine oblate and a very insightful writer, and inexplicably (to me) a Presbyterian. But she manages to cruise along and not see a problem (theologically) w being both a Benedictine and a Presbyterian. She hangs out w and writes a lot about monks and nuns — wh is why I’ve been reading her I guess.
What — do you remember? — where the points against her.
Cd be. I’m not reading her current one (Cloister Walk) but an earlier one called Dakota.
Some of her essays in Dakota deal with being an outsider in a small town, and reminded me a little of being in CdA — although the place she describes is much more insular and smaller.
Yeah. easy on the eyes I think you said. quot unquote
It is unique, I think, partly because of the lake & resort and partly because it is nestled up next to Spokane’s near-big-city-ness — and then the Midwestern frontier & mts stretching of to the east.
I might ‘ve become to attached to the coastal country. The ocean is kind of the same thing, a great plains of its own.
But the inland is in my blood I suppose.
Right, uh, I forget the other one’s name…
Right. Bilbo.
I read the trilogy while riding the train across the US of A. I guess I cd stand a re-reading one of these days.
elaborate please
Right. I missed the segue from Tolkien though.
Okay. But time sprawls out onboard the train and affords periods for both which reflect off each other — Tolkien’s landscape and the landscape in the window.
Okay, now I’m beginning to get it. Hmm…
What’re you drinking? BTW
Lager, right?
Sounds like a good harvest-time brew.
Beamish Stout and Lowenbrau Dark.
It’s good. I think its frothier than Guinness and has more of a bitter edge, though still pretty thick and smooth as you’d expect.
… I didn’t really get a sense of that, although now I’ve mixed it w the Lowenbrau so my taste buds are all askew.
It’s Irish.
One last word on Beamish: “brewed in Cork, Ireland since 1792”
So… Pike Place?
Nothing comes from the heart of Seattle. The “heart” of Seattle is a closed book, a mysterious murky thing.
Interesting image. A green and hairy heart.
I’ve seen PP brew around. I can’t remember if I’ve tried it.
I was drinking “Emerald City Ale” for awhile, because it was a pretty good amber and fairly inexpensive, but that may have been a marketing ploy when it first appeared. Alaskan Amber is a standby whenever I land in a tavern somewhere hereabouts.
I used to rely on Red Hook as my middle-of-the-road cheap but not too cheap bear du jour but I’ve since switched over to Lowenbrau Dark.
I forget. I think the residents of the house had left me something along those lines. But different.
Have you tried Guiness in a can? Their special high-tech deal.
Me neither.
I used to buy the big bottles of Sheaf Stout a lot, but the price went up I think and now I don’t have a low-cost black beer standby.
It wd seem pretty simple. But maybe the mass market just aint there. e.g. My uncle who used to work at Boeing said that his fellow working stiffs referred to … I’m thinking … oh I just realized that as I was writing “Red Hook” above I was actually thinking of “Killian’s Red” — so, that may explain my rationale for comparing it to Lowenbrau — anyway my uncle said his workmates referred to Killians as “yuppy beer” — Killians mind you.

So, anyway, the masses are asses.
He’s been down w the flu of late. But I saw im this morning. He won a bunch of free passes to the Puyallup fair by correctly answering a question on the conservative talk-radio station he habitually listens to in the morning — this morning and was … not quite elated, but you know, jazzed as can bee.

So we, he and I and maybe C and M, might go to the fair on Sunday. “Do the Puyallup” — it’s the heavily repeated ad slogan hereabouts this time of year.
if we cd just procreate in a hurry and produce some young’uns
In general?
That’s cool. From other likeminded Calvinists and such? You have to turn over quite a few stones to find one.
What’s the secret handshake?
Whatever it is it’s been predestined.
now I’m loling
Yeah, mainly that. She feels a little uneasy about admitting to em that she’s Catholic, although I imagine they’d be okay with it. But these are more familiar waters to me who was a Lute and is now a Cat.
Nevererver. No, I think I’ve arrived at my final station of the cross.
Well… maybe too much. But I think all Christians are closet Catholics anyway, even if they don’t know it or wdn’t admit it.
Well, what Chesterton wd say is that Calvinism is a part of the truth, the whole of which exists and is balanced by other truths in the Mother Church where all truth subsists.
I dunno.
A little — I thinks it’s like a blend of ? islam and hinduism or middle-eastern and far-eastern with elements of this and that ..?
Right. Very loosey-goosey.
i.e. Aristotelian philosphy and such?
I see the HRCC as being a thing that has careened down thru the centuries, in a sometimes grand sometimes awkward sometimes embarrassing display, but basically addressing the threats to orthodoxy that arose at various times and holding fast to the truth that was handed down by the apostles.
Well, I don’t know — what desires and superstitions are you referring to?
Or left it undefined, as it was. That is magisterially undefined. But your reading is simply one reading of that. The catholic reading (sympathetic) wd be that this was an instance of the Holy Spirit moving among the people to bring this truth to light — a truth that was rooted in reason and tradition even though it wasn’t clearly taught by the apostles or revealed in Scripture. It’s also an unusual case.
Right. ghead
And Romanly speaking.
Since it is the knife that was forged in Rome.
Almost, but I see what you mean. I think.
Anyway, I think the church, as you can probably guess, really is a continuous Catholic and Apostolic thing. And that scripture is a key — a very important key element in that. But it’s the chicken & egg question. I think the bible is the Church’s book and not the other way around. So for me, as a catholic, what cuts through those webs is the scripture, but as part of the teaching authority of the church, handed down from the apostles and continuing to speak authoritatively until the end. And the gates of hell shall not prevail, etc.
Church (capital C)
Yes, that’s the main solo motto I think. I like the way you emphasize that in your discussion of those mottos on your HP.
I wd like to make it more broadly amusing, as I started out thinking it wd be. But the long poem thing is distracting me. I’m kinda getting into it as a poetic project. But I don’t think I really want it to be the main and only thing on the website. But ….
It rings a bell. Maybe. Is it text based or image?
I’ll look for it. Sounds interesting. I need to get offline pretty quick.
go fer it dude.
Keep me posted on the software installation front.
And suchlike.
Oh yeah.
Ciao man
again in 2 weeks
32 bit
and all
okay. adios


  1. Rufus McCain says

    His side of the conversation:

    The other side:

    that’s cool
    OS is an official netizen as of today
    She’ll be ok — she’ll prob become a hacker grrl…
    Is beer bad for MS keyboards?
    Sans sucre
    Doris wants your telephone #–I think so–she said something about going to Seatown
    That’s the only time to visit–the REAL Seattle.
    Only a true Seattlite would say that
    To your chagrin, I think.
    Chin a grin
    How’s M?
    Too busy to see you?
    New experience–it’s good for you.Two questions–what does she do (work) and how hopeful is the WW gig?
    Sticky sticky
    Hmmm, ok, right.
    Is this an Evangelical or Liberal Lutheran church at which she works?She isn’t really super theologically minded is she?
    I see. It seems to me that most “artistic types” (broad generalization) don’t really perceive the Science of theology–for the most part. Sometimes. occasionally. kind of.
    I think I may have come across a critique of that book at one of my Reformed haunts…I can’t say that they treated it too positively. But that is to be expected–from some of the opinionated personas who feel moved enough to let it all hang out on a web page….
    I don’t remember, I have to admit I wasn’t terribly interested–the thought of converting to Catholicism (as it seems to me they presented it) has never appealed to me–also, it seems like it was co-written w her husband maybe?
    Ok that makes sense–I think it was Cloister Walk.
    That reminds me, you member I said we have a new circ. person named Ingrid?
    Right, well, she has a mind too. We were talking the other day and she said (like most young people graduating in CDA) that she couldn’t wait to get the hell out of town. But, now she is ready to settle down, and wants to retire in CDA==she couldn’t be 5 yrs. older than me (us). But she says that CDA is a lot less “white” than it used to be, and that she quite likes it now–if it stays like it is, now…..
    Yep, you’ll be back–some day–but, you’ll be back….
    Tolkien would agree.
    I think so, Frodo.
    I was once a great Tolkien fan–but, alas, ephemera has been stripping away, layer by layer….
    Prob. so, I would have been very distracted–though I always preferred my various inner kingdoms as opposed to (you know, the opposite).
    Oh, it is this huge thing, I hate photographs for the same reason–they only show a shell. If there could ever be a camera that could present the inner person, I should be happy to pose…. The whole thing applies to most of my other thought processes, world view, etc. too.
    Ah, yes, I was thinking about reading such an incredible epic while going across a country (which in some people’s views) would be equally interesting/distracting.
    Right, I’ve experienced similar, um, what do you call that, interplay. But I think my fantasy/imagination would prob. win out.
    Just Foster’s Special Bitter, I picked it up after work–room temperature, mmmm good.
    Right, very similar in taste/texture to Red Hook, but without the fruity/floral flavor/aroma.
    No, this is their Special Bitter Ale–recently exported (just).
    Good stuff, not offensive to any of my sensibilities.
    Right. Tell me about the Beamish.
    Oh well, I don’t think I’ve seen it, but the name sounds familiar…
    Have you had the Pike Place Stout?
    Hmm, I’ve only heard of Murphy’s besides Guinness–curious.
    Yah, I saw some in Spokane (Six pack) that claims to come from the Heart of Seattle–Pike Street…
    I couldn’t agree more. A Hairy Heart–that needs to be shaved.
    I thought it would just be too cliche, so I didn’t bother, but if it is good–I don’t care how cliche it is…
    I’d have to say that Red Hook is my basic bitter.
    You had some of that house sitting, didn’t you.
    Hmmm. Black hook was always my black beer, when I couldn’t afford Guinness–which was spoilt, when I had my first draught on tap….A world of difference–I’ve been trying to find that in a canned/bottled beer ever since.
    Yes, It was very good, but spensive.
    Murphy’s does theirs like that too, but I’ve never had it.
    That sucks, but I know the feeling–if they can mass produce Bud shit, why can’t they come up w a low cost stout dammit.
    Right, that’s scary, I used to drink Killians at kegger parties in University–that was cheap and different–but def. not Yuppy, in our eyes.
    Cheers. here
    So how’s Mr Young, seen ‘im lately or is he still on the road north primarily?
    That’s funny.
    How very “Focus on the Family” of you all….Right, wouldn’t you just. Paula has had the flu all week–and AJ has been green around the gills most of the week too. I’m kickin’ butt however.
    And all that. I hope to finally have my main software tomorrow–maybe Monday. And I’m beginning to get responses to my homepage every other week or so, now.
    Not always==Christian for sure–evangelical probably–but Calvinists are hard to find–Right. They (we) are not just everywhere, which is nice–It is kind of like a secret Orthodox Fraternity…
    LOL==I’m not sure prob a nose horn , right, sign at the Papists…
    So, I think it is interesting that M is working at a Lutheran church–I wonder how much she really picks up on–though i know it is prob. “just work”
    Soon to be a Pres, or maybe a Morm?
    With not just a little deliberation…
    And, I was just thinking that all Christians are Closet Calvinists, because they are the “keepers of Orthodoxy”–even the Catholicism of the Early Church…
    I’ll have to think about that, but I have to admit that OD
    What was that? Are you familiar w Bahai Faith?
    Yeah, the impression is that it is a “blend” of all the Eastern Religions–generally speaking–they even accept Christ as a prophet–and Muhammed, Bhudda, etc.
    Well, i kind of perceive The HRCC in the same light==but with western “thought” instead of “religions,” per se. Yah, philosophy and Culture, too. The Catholic Church in Mexico and So. America being my main frame of reference.
    But, always tempering it with the ideas of not such a “high” authority–like the general desires/superstitions of the masses (In my perspective).
    Actually, the thought in mind as I wrote that was the account of how the “Emmaculate Conception” idea penetrated to the point of becoming dogma, simply because various communities in various parts of Europe kind of decided to celebrate it–whereas Rome hadn’t any preferences–and then had to “yield” eventually because It finally became an issue–where it seems to me they should’ve just said, NO.
    Hmm, well you know me, Sola Scriptura….
    It seems to cutt

    That motto, and the thought/principle behind it, seems (to some extent) to cut through some of the ephemera (I like that word) and the residue of the kosmos which wants to cover Christians with layer upon layer of Spider webs (I was thinking of the hobbits in the forest w/ that big spider). The Scriptures are kind of like that sharp knife which slices right through it all… Romantically speaking. I think you know I’ve never denied the Catholic beginnings of the Church–but I think you also know that I never considered the beginnings of the church to be Catholic, but rather Christian (that didn’t contradict did it?).
    Church/church, is my responxe.
    I agree with that, if the Church’s foundation is Christ (Solo Christo), yep.
    Thanks, btw, I would like to link up when you’ve gotten a little further along, I’ve been noticing your progress, and even showed Ally what it looks like on a graphical browser.
    Yah, whatever works–go with it–you can add more humorous bits with some other links, later, if you want. Btw have you ever encountered the Surrealist Server?
    Image–with some text of course–it is a kick! I was there last night. Some freaky stuff–very Surrealist (philosophical movement oriented).
    That’s fine, I gotta whizzzzzzzz
    Ok–hey, can I give Doris your#206
    Hokie dokie, Bye
    Yes, big time
    Gigs and gigs
    See ya

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